Don't Pray For Me Salt Lake City
File this under: Some people just want to be offended.
Jay Tea at Wizbang writes:
This isn't exactly breaking news. Having long-time friends and, via marriage, members of my own family who are Mormon I've known this for a long time. Afraid I failed to get "outraged" over it though.
Better to whine in hell than live in Utah?
Look, this is silly. According to Mormonism, you only get into heaven if you're a Mormon. So they try their best to make sure as many people get there as possible. I don't believe in their theology, but I'll be d*mned (pun intended) if I can find reason for offense in someone wishing heaven upon me. I don't even have to lift a finger - this all takes place after I'm safely dead.
As for "stealing their identity," exactly how? In the eyes of the Mormons, now these folks are in heaven. In the eyes of their Jewish relatives why does this change a thing? Do they secretly believe in Mormon theology, but find it socially awkward to come out and say so?
Unless I'm misreading this, and I don't think I am, Jay thinks Mormon conversion practices are more odious than those of Islam. Oh really? Is he insane?
Likely not. He's just not thinking clearly. "Die and then we'll convert you" has got to be the very least intrusive conversion practice in the history of religion. You don't have to participate. Your relatives don't have to be bothered. No one takes out an article in a newspaper announcing your post-mortem conversion, and thereby sullying your proudly Mormon-free reputation.
If the Mormon faith is true, they're doing these deceased folks the best good they could possibly do. If their faith is false, they're doing no harm and bothering no one but themselves. Unless you're just looking to be offended anyway.
(Hat-tip Dean)
Jay Tea at Wizbang writes:
As I've said before, I'm not overly religious. And one of the reasons is that I get seriously annoyed at evangelicals, those who do everything they can to bring others to "the one true faith."
But the Mormons are taking that to new and outrageous levels. They have taken to baptizing dead people.
This isn't exactly breaking news. Having long-time friends and, via marriage, members of my own family who are Mormon I've known this for a long time. Afraid I failed to get "outraged" over it though.
...Until word got out to some Jewish people that their ancestors who were killed in Nazi concentration camps were, in the eyes of the Mormons, no longer Jewish. They were now Mormons, and "saved" in the eyes of God.
To many of those Jews, this was an unforgivable insult. Those ancestors had died solely because of their Jewish identity, and now these Mormon whackos were stealing them of even that.
Better to whine in hell than live in Utah?
Look, this is silly. According to Mormonism, you only get into heaven if you're a Mormon. So they try their best to make sure as many people get there as possible. I don't believe in their theology, but I'll be d*mned (pun intended) if I can find reason for offense in someone wishing heaven upon me. I don't even have to lift a finger - this all takes place after I'm safely dead.
As for "stealing their identity," exactly how? In the eyes of the Mormons, now these folks are in heaven. In the eyes of their Jewish relatives why does this change a thing? Do they secretly believe in Mormon theology, but find it socially awkward to come out and say so?
I'm a huge believer in freedom of religion, but I've always thought that a key element of that concept was the right to be free FROM religion. Christians have gotten over the "convert or die" crap, the Jews never had an evangelical streak (in fact, converting to Judaism is a huge effort), and even among Muslims it's less common than before.
But the Mormons are taking it even further. It's now "die, and then we'll convert you." Whether you ever wanted it or not. No matter what your family might say. We're gonna save your soul over your dead body — most literally.
Unless I'm misreading this, and I don't think I am, Jay thinks Mormon conversion practices are more odious than those of Islam. Oh really? Is he insane?
Likely not. He's just not thinking clearly. "Die and then we'll convert you" has got to be the very least intrusive conversion practice in the history of religion. You don't have to participate. Your relatives don't have to be bothered. No one takes out an article in a newspaper announcing your post-mortem conversion, and thereby sullying your proudly Mormon-free reputation.
If the Mormon faith is true, they're doing these deceased folks the best good they could possibly do. If their faith is false, they're doing no harm and bothering no one but themselves. Unless you're just looking to be offended anyway.
(Hat-tip Dean)
Posted by Doug on
Tuesday April 12, 2005 at 10:53am
Long story short: my brother converted to the LDS church a few years ago and had our grandma posthumously baptized. Granny was a devout Catholic. Went to mass twice daily. Tried to get my dad to become a priest. Was highly disappointed when that didn't work out, but took it on the chin ;) She had prepared her soul for the afterlife in a way she had chosen. She died when I was four, so I don't really remember her all that much, but my brother does, and as such, when he went LDS (and dived head first into the deep end of that pool) he was very worried about her soul and offered her up for posthumous baptism at his temple.
My Dad, yet another devout Catholic, hit the roof when he heard about this. Everyone in the family hit the roof, thinking this was the worst possible betrayal our brother could have ever conceived. He didn't see it that way. Mormons believe in an "active afterlife" wherein when the individua being posthumously baptized is being offered the choice of whether or not to become Mormon. Yes, you read that right, the deceased are being given the choice while they're in heaven. My brother argued that if Granny didn't want it, she would refuse it and all would be well. No harm, no foul.
The problem with this scenario arises when you take into account that baptism in most faiths means conversion. The Mormons don't see it that way. But everyone else does see it that way. hence the outrage. Faith is a personal decision that one makes during their lifetime. That choice should be respected. The LDS Church does not ask if it's all right to do this. They don't care what anyone else thinks, they'll do as they damn well please and have the gall to act offended when you're offended. See? They're messing with very, very personal stuff here and they just don't care. That's why this practice angers so many people.
To this very day, my father is trying to get this undone. Granny is in the LDS database for a reason, and my father wants her out of there. Every time he has communication with them about this, all he ever gets is a Book of Mormon in the mail along with a raft of pamphlets. They just don't care about the family members. They really don't. Hence, my father won't let my brother near any of the family genealogy data: he doesn't want someone else to be posthumously baptized.
Sorry to get windy, but it's a very intrusive practice.
I have family members in the LDS too, and I know exactly what you're talking about. But once again, I see nothing here but taking offense for the sake of being offended.
Do you really think your grandma "converted" posthumously just because the LDS theology says she did? Because if not, who cares what they believe? Should mean no more to you than a witch doctor putting a curse on her.
You might care what your brother believes, of course - he's your family. And you might hate the family friction caused when he brings up practices that conflict with the family's own religion - makes sense. But I can't understand why you'd prefer the LDS believes your grandmother can't get into heaven because she's Catholic, than that she is in heaven. The former sounds like an insult to me. The latter is a compliment - even if their customs around it seem weird.
In the Catholic Church we pray for the souls of the dead in purgatory. We believe many such souls went to their graves heatedly rejecting the very notion of purgatory, and "papists" in general. I've got some of those in my family too. I'm sure there are folks who get mighty worked up about this kind of Catholic prayer. In fact I know there are. I've met some of them. But what can I do about that? Their disdain for my Catholicism shouldn't dampen my prayers.
Incidentally, side topic, did you realize that this practice is why the Mormon Church is considered to have the best geneology research database in the world? They'll march right back their family trees baptising along the way. And the research required has provided geneologists world-wide a gold-mine of information.
Is a blatant disregard for the faiths of others and the choices they made in their lifetimes not a reason to be offended? Is the fact that they do not inform family members, who inconveniently might object to their actions, not a reason to be offended? None of this should matter, according to you, because they're offering heaven on a platter, and meaning is only attached if you want it to be. It's a compliment, not an insult.
Well, ok. I can see where you're coming from, and it is a compliment, to a certain (and very limited) extent. But it's another story entirely for the living and breathing members of the LDS church.
The last time I babysat my brother's kids for a few weeks, I had a temporary power of attorney over their children in case they got hurt or became ill and needed medical treatment. You want to know what my sister-in-law's first words about that were? "Don't even think about converting them." Literally, these were the words that flew out of her mouth as she was signing the papers. All things being equal, if I shouldn't be offended that my Granny was posthumously baptized in the LDS church---because it doesn't mean anything unless I attach said meaning---why should my sister-in-law be threatened by my Catholicism? After all, aren't my nieces' and nephews' spots in the afterlife already guaranteed because they're Mormon? It shouldn't have mattered one whit if it's really not the big deal that you say it is. Not that I would have rushed those kids right over to the church and had the priest dunk them the minute I had legal power over them, but I think you get the gist. I'm supposed to respect their faith, but they have no respect for mine and my Granny's. They're just offering "a choice" and I shouldn't be offended by that, when if the same choice were offered to them, during their lifespans which is when my faith dictates they should be offered the choice, they would be offended that I wasn't respecting their faith.
I wrote in my first comment that logic has nothing to do with this; it's all emotional. It's about other people forcing their beliefs on your family members who are, conveniently, dead so they cannot object and who would have not have wanted that choice offered to them during their lifetimes. It, ultimately, disrespects the dead and the choices they made knowingly and willfully during their lives. If that's not a reason to be offended, I don't know what is.
Yep. It's all emotional. You're not being rational about this at all.
A Muslim wishes the blessings of the prophet upon me, I take it as a compliment even though I don't believe his prophet was anything of the sort. Convince me I ought to be offended and I'll listen. All I'm seeing are people asserting that they are offended by people wishing heaven upon their relatives. I don't get that. Nothing you've said helps me find reason for offense.
I am offended by their actions. My family is offended by their actions. You say we don't have any reason to be. Well, you're wrong. We have plenty of reason to be offended, as I listed above, but the main reason would be is that they violated the Golden Rule: do unto others as you would have done unto you. Pretty simple stuff, on the whole. If you want people to respect your faith, perhaps you should respect others'. No degree in rocket science is needed to figure this one out.
And this offends you why? Because they acted according to their own religious beliefs and conducted a ritual they believed would send your relative to heaven?
Not registering the offense here. As far as I can tell, you expect Mormons to act like thet don't believe in Mormonism around you and your family, because acting otherwise hurts your feelings. Color me confused.
I could speculate about personal theological reasons why this same behavior bugs you but not me, but I won't. Suffice it to say, you cannot claim greater "Catholic cred" than me, so this isn't a Catholic/Mormon issue. It's personal.